We all have to live in the Vanilla world
[19:56] Warlok-TSH: TONIGHTS TOPIC: We all have to live in the Vanilla world, our jobs, family etc are just as much a part of us as Gor is to me. When a Master takes the submission of a slave what are the limits? As Master do I look at her mail, her email, tell her who she may talk to and see and who she can't? Do I control her thoughts? her speech? Is every minute of her life, no matter what aspect of it mine to tell her what to do?
[19:59] Malus: i think most of that’s left up to the Master..the thoughts, just don’t see how that’s really possible
[19:59] Malus: but i think micromanaging is not a good thing
[20:00] hannah{BA}: hmm maybe it is not micro managing really though <Master...but direction??
[20:00] NDNWarlord: micro-managing either displays a poor slave, or an insecure master, in my mind
[20:01] Malus: direction is one thing but micromanaging is a whole different thing
[20:01] hannah{BA}: hmm my Master doesn't micro manage us...but He wants to know our thoughts...He wants to know what we are doing all the time..but He loves our individual minds...and loves our input on things..but He is Master and makes the final..say..
[20:01] Malus: of course it’s all a matter of how much is to much right
[20:02] Malus: sure nothing wrong with wanting to know what you’re thinking but trying to control those thoughts
[20:02] Malus: how is that even possible
[20:02] Malus: truthfully
[20:03] hannah{BA}: hmm *thinks* control?? please Master what would you consider as control??
[20:03] hannah{BA}: of the thoughts that is?
[20:04] Malus: that’s what im saying..how would you even go about that
[20:04] Malus: you can’t make someone think a certain way
[20:04] Malus: you may guide them in that direction
[20:05] Malus: but that’s about it
[20:05] hannah{BA}: no way to do that i wouldn't think Master Malus..but a Mastger should make sure a girl sort of thinks the way He does...generally speaking too eh??
[20:06] Warlok-TSH: wench: i don’t think as a slave we have the 'right' for limits at all for those type of things....if a girl needs to negotiate what she will and wont share with Him, it may be submission, but its not slavery
[20:06] Warlok-TSH: wench: however, WHY in gawds name would a Master want to do any of that? lol
[20:06] * hannah{BA} agrees with wench on that one
[20:06] Warlok-TSH: wench: He collared a girl with a good head on her shoulders...not a puppet
[20:08] Malus: goes back to what i said last night..just because you can doesn’t mean it’s smart to do
[20:10] hannah{BA}: a slaves heart should revolve around her Master...everything she does is for Him..if she is working..she works hard to be the best on her job...for her Master..to be pleasing to Him in the vanilla world...so people notice she is a hard worker. she feels good cause she does it for Him
[20:10] hannah{BA}: if she is in school. she works hard to be the best student for her Master..
[20:11] NDNWarlord: reality sets limits
[20:11] NDNWarlord: unless some women decide to forgo seeking themselves because they have a youngun
[20:12] NDNWarlord: or husband
[20:12] NDNWarlord: or health issues
[20:12] NDNWarlord: reality is a bitch
[20:12] NDNWarlord: but ya cant pretend it aint real
[20:12] NDNWarlord: to many do that
[20:12] NDNWarlord: I cant very well be in an LDR (long distance Relationship)
[20:13] NDNWarlord: for some months or even years investing into as possible future
[20:13] NDNWarlord: if i have to micromanage some woman cause she aunt got better sense than to not hit Wal-Mart on payday and spend foolishly
[20:13] NDNWarlord: also very real
[20:13] NDNWarlord: its a fine line sometimes
[20:13] NDNWarlord: and it goes both ways
[20:14] NDNWarlord: being a master isn’t a free license to be an ass or invasive or even perhaps destructive
[20:14] NDNWarlord: It does give me a right to know
[20:14] NDNWarlord: and voice
[20:14] Malus: i control things like money and finances
[20:15] NDNWarlord: and "the option": to assume I know all the particulars far away and yet make the right decisions based on very limited info
[20:15] Malus: so i don’t have a problem with them running to Wal-Mart lol
[20:15] NDNWarlord: sometimes the woman’s got to be accountable and expected to react and do according to her master will...put simply
[20:23] risa{Mk}c: hmmm that is a good topic and i sit here wondering how my Master would answer more so than how i would lol
[20:29] nightfox151: i doubt A Master can control her thoughts
[20:31] NDNWarlord: i commanded she did
[20:31] NDNWarlord: much is auto responsive
[20:31] NDNWarlord: is more conditioning than controlling
[20:32] NDNWarlord: control "thru a slave" is a fake and shallow example of mastery
[20:32] NDNWarlord: mastery is when a look, a word, a glance, initiates automatic activity on a lot more levels than Freud had a clue about
[20:34] nightfox151: i don’t think any one can control any one in every minute of they life
[20:35] aaminah{S}c: no but as Master, she is His ,all of her, everything..........
[20:36] NDNWarlord: it aunt about control though
[20:36] NDNWarlord: there is non unless ya subscribe to the theory that a person can actually surrender complete free will
[20:36] NDNWarlord: otherwise
[20:36] nightfox151: i agree it is not about control
[20:36] NDNWarlord: if your a realist
[20:37] NDNWarlord: and admit that no one controls anything beyond the bounds of his own swing
[20:37] NDNWarlord: then it becomes a matter of conditioning
[20:38] risa{Mk}c: my Master could do all the things listed but does not, either way, it's whatever he decides, i never even give it much thought
[20:38] hannah{BA}: my life is controlled and i like it that way but i am still an individual...
[20:41] feylin: it certainly would be, i think, a matter of influence. If i submit to someone, my thoughts and actions would be with Him in mind. As to emails, contacts, etc...that would certainly be up to Him. i suppose its a preference from Master to Master.
[20:42] feylin: i would expect enough of myself to trust Him going into the submission, so His choice would dictate how it would go.
[20:43] Warlok-TSH: very much so I don't control who aurea talks to or gets e-mail from, I could really care less
[20:43] NDNWarlord: i gotta maintain the control vs. need to control, as being reflective of the state of either the master or the slave
[20:44] Warlok-TSH: in alot of ways alot of people would say aurea is on a very long leash sure she defers to me before spending money unless it's a necessity for the household then she knows she don't have to ask.
[20:45] aaminah{S}c: but You are the one that chooses to give her that long leash eh Master?
[20:45] Warlok-TSH: between kids and grams and the household I don't have nor want to take the time to micromanage her and it's not necessary at all
[20:45] Malus: what would you say the difference would be NDN between control and the need to control
[20:46] Warlok-TSH: yes aminaah I am
[20:46] kardelan{S-F}: i know what Master expects...he can trust me to behave as he would like...he knows i know how to do my job so he doesn’t feel the need to micromanage..he's not like that anyway lol
[20:46] Warlok-TSH: that and she's earned it to
[20:46] Malus: and how do you think that would be reflective of the Master and or slave
[20:46] aaminah{S}c: then so be it Master
[20:46] kardelan{S-F}: if he gives a task. to anyone..hes usually pretty sure its going to be done
[20:46] NDNWarlord: control is an active influence to suspend or encourage a person’s time, efforts, actions
[20:46] Filkus-afk: need to control created a controlling person always barking out orders..... control is being able to have a long leash and things work to Master's plan anyway.
[20:47] NDNWarlord: need to control, is a codependent mental health issue that provides a crutch to a weak individual.
[20:47] kardelan{S-F}: when Master traveled for his job...he knew it would all run the same as if he was home. its a trust issue
[20:47] NDNWarlord: and the men and women I call my peers are neither weak nor ill
[20:48] NDNWarlord: take care of business woman.....should suffice
[20:48] Malus: then just speaking. why would someone seek out an M/s relationship for control or need to control
[20:48] NDNWarlord: if its
[20:48] NDNWarlord: don’t go over 150 bucks
[20:48] feylin: so, with the long leash in mind, do you, as Masters, feel comfortable stepping in an cutting your slave off from what you see as detrimental people or actions? Or, slaves, do you think your Master has that level of comfort with you?
[20:48] NDNWarlord: don’t by white bread
[20:48] NDNWarlord: don’t use jiff choose Skippy
[20:48] feylin: but i love that jiff.
[20:48] NDNWarlord: thats an issue and hasn’t a thing to do with being a master nor an owner of a creature we enslave to our wills
[20:49] kardelan{S-F}: there are ppl that i don’t engage in conversation with because Master doesn’t wish me to
[20:49] kardelan{S-F}: not that i want to anyway. but there are a few
[20:49] Malus: you don’t think its relative
[21:00] Warlok-TSH: trust has everything in it's own way to do with that long leash. it's that way because I can trust her and I know that she will always serve my best interest and the best interest of the household
[21:01] kardelan{S-F}: i agree...i would never do anything that would hurt the situation...and i know Master never would
[21:01] NDNWarlord: trust...based on absolute truths
[21:01] NDNWarlord: I concur
[21:01] feylin: if would feel great (i believe) to earn the trust which enables a longer/looser leash.
[21:01] Warlok-TSH: trust based on open communication
[21:01] feylin: it would..i meant..
[21:01] kardelan{S-F}: but we've been together for so long now, we tend to read each other pretty well lol
[21:02] NDNWarlord: aunt that the sweet spot though, Kard?
[21:02] kardelan{S-F}: and when a disaster hits, i know exactly what Master Sang is going to do
[21:02] feylin: but i don't see micro-managing Masters or their as an oddity. just as a preference.
[21:02] kardelan{S-F}: yep it is Master
[21:02] NDNWarlord: that...intimacy
[21:02] feylin: or "their's"
[21:03] kardelan{S-F}: we worked hard to create this, in spite of kids and jobs and life pulling the rug out ..several times...and it comes down to trust
[21:03] shygurlInd47374: 01if there isn’t trust in the relationship then there shouldn’t be one at all
[21:03] shygurlInd47374: i would never hide nothing from my Master
[21:03] shygurlInd47374: 01my family and friends know about my life style as does my job
[21:03] shygurlInd47374: 01i don’t hide it
[21:03] shygurlInd47374: 01i see no use in hiding it
[21:04] kardelan{S-F}: and Master is consistent....the kids never had to worry about how he would handle a situation, cuz they knew. they saw it happen over and over....so they were never surprised by his reactions lol
[21:04] NDNWarlord: aunt easy
[21:04] kardelan{S-F}: reactions
[21:04] NDNWarlord: but is "the ""forth"" knowledge'
[21:06] kardelan{S-F}: i think that being gorean or being any other title based on lifestyle philosophy does not excuse you from being a responsible adult
[21:07] NDNWarlord: consistency is also a thing to keep in mind, now that ya mentioned it
[21:07] kardelan{S-F}: we live in a real world. we have real obligations and emotional ties to ppl that demand our attentions
[21:07] Warlok-TSH: nothing excuses us from that kardelan
[21:07] NDNWarlord: its been my experience of the years to see that slave mentalities require consistency, intimacy, trust direction
[21:08] kardelan{S-F}: being slave does not allow me to be a "victim" thats not slave mentality thats mental illness
[21:08] NDNWarlord: well said kardelan
[21:08] kardelan{S-F}: the stories i've heard of children being ignored...slaves being used sexually in front of their kids...that crap..that's not gor
[21:08] kardelan{S-F}: thats just idiots
[21:09] kardelan{S-F}: the gorean books do not advocate that
[21:09] kardelan{S-F}: nor does the lifestyle
[21:09] Malus-phone: nor does the law
[21:09] kardelan{S-F}: guys that come in and yell at their wives at work...get into it with their wives bosses...thats morons who beat women. those are predators, not masters
[21:09] Warlok-TSH: thats about the most irresponsible thing I think I've ever heard of.........slaves being used sexually in front of their kids
[21:10] kardelan{S-F}: as the lifestyle has become more mainstream. and folks its really pretty tame considering whets out there....the morons and gorons, predators and victims will continue to fall by the wayside
[21:10] feylin: but there are also people that find comfort in being micro-managed. it doesn't have to be to an extreme that is viewed as abuse. Well, sure, people do judge it as that...it happens.
[21:10] kardelan{S-F}: no...and in some cases i am that way
[21:10] NDNWarlord: my take is this
[21:11] NDNWarlord: but then I’m pretty mean
[21:11] NDNWarlord: if anything gorean develops into slavery or sex, its prolly not gorean to begin with
[21:11] NDNWarlord: slaves and sex are simply a byproduct of a mand walk, of a woman’s discovery
[21:11] NDNWarlord: that is what is normanist Gor
[21:12] kardelan{S-F}: those who engage in BDSM sexual activities may or may not be gorean...heck i was doing some prettttty kinky stuff long before i heard of gor lol
[21:12] kardelan{S-F}: so the sex thing is that..sex
[21:12] kardelan{S-F}: and as i say all the time...sex, everyone who can. IS having sex lol
[21:13] Malus-phone: i engage in BDSM activities and see noting wrong with them
[21:14] Malus-phone: nor really do i give a crap if anyone does
[21:14] kardelan{S-F}: the difference i see is that there is peace
[21:14] Malus-phone: ill decide if i'm Gorean or not
[21:14] aaminah{S}c: bingo
[21:14] feylin: i just think the length of a leash (or, if there even is a leash) is preference.
[21:14] kardelan{S-F}: i don’t worry about the money...so we don’t ever fight about it
[21:15] kardelan{S-F}: he’s not going to let me starve or put us a zillion dollars in debt..hes responsible...we raised four kids..i think he knows what’s best
[21:15] kardelan{S-F}: he has a better head for numbers than i do anyway
[21:16] kardelan{S-F}: the girls at work used to think it was strange that he came and picked up my paycheck lol
[21:16] kardelan{S-F}: but...logistically speaking..hes already out there, he can go to the bank far easier than i could. I would have to leave work...he drives by it a hundred times a day
[21:16] NDNWarlord: am not trying to put a damper or limit on a masters rights by no means
[21:17] NDNWarlord: I reserve mine
[21:17] NDNWarlord: but am just saying intent is a factore
[21:17] kardelan{S-F}: he also does most of the shopping...he drives a cab..hes already taking someone else there
[21:17] NDNWarlord: why...do "I" do what I do?
[21:17] kardelan{S-F}: its cheaper and faster
[21:17] kardelan{S-F}: much more efficient. and why should i drive a car thats going to sit in a parking lot all day
[21:17] NDNWarlord: well sometimes them truths escape others....we. goreans, tend to do like what we mentioned, as we will
[21:17] kardelan{S-F}: he drops me off and picks me up
[21:18] kardelan{S-F}: thats the key right there Master NDNWarlord...motivation
[21:18] feylin: i believe so as well, Master NDNWarlord.
[21:18] kardelan{S-F}: its not what we do. its why
[21:18] kardelan{S-F}: my emotional payoff is pleasing Master Sang
[21:18] Malus-phone: what is his
[21:18] kardelan{S-F}: i know what it takes to do that
[21:18] kardelan{S-F}: you would have to ask him that Master
[21:19] Malus-phone: just wondering if you might know
[21:19] NDNWarlord: yes sklutling..motivation, intent, is it really enslavement of being, or a codependent crutch to replace reality
[21:21] kardelan{S-F}: i don’t need Master in a physical sense to survive...i can keep a roof over my head and feed myself pretty well. the need for him has nothing to do with what he can give me materially...nothing i couldn’t have bought for myself
[21:21] Malus-phone: sweet
[21:21] kardelan{S-F}: but the need he fulfills in me is not one i ever met anyone else that could...he’s who he is. and that wasn’t easy to learn lol
[21:21] kardelan{S-F}: and i wont say i didn’t fight it
[21:22] NDNWarlord: make a new reality show...."You’ve been Mastered"
[21:23] kardelan{S-F}: a lot of it was trust...learning that there is no hidden agenda ..that its exactly what it appears to be lol
[21:23] kardelan{S-F}: that takes a lil time for ppl..humans in general aren’t so good at that lol
[21:24] kardelan{S-F}: being gorean doesn’t make us any less open to those faults. we are human
[21:25] kardelan{S-F}: we say and do things in anger or without thinking or habit...and that can clash with someone who's experiences are different and the actions or words carry a totally different meaning
[21:26] kardelan{S-F}: we each did not come here clean slates. we bring all the experiences that make us who we are...and life affects us all differently
[21:26] kardelan{S-F}: perspective
[21:27] kardelan{S-F}: if you grow up in the hood...a three bdrm ranch look like every other ranch home. is a palace. if you grew up on park ave...you might not be so impressed
[21:27] Warlok-TSH: a three bdrm ranch look like every other ranch home=mario land
[21:27] Malus-phone: i grew up in the hood and i’m still not impressed
[21:29] kardelan{S-F}: i grew up in a big italian family...catholic family..took me yrs to get over the guilt
[21:29] kardelan{S-F}: you bring that with you
[21:29] kardelan{S-F}: either recognized and understood or below the surface and looking for a vent lol
[21:29] Malus-phone: italian food with a side of guilt. no thx
[21:30] kardelan{S-F}: yeah..but they did love you...it was just a kinda convoluted way of doing it lol
[21:30] Warlok-TSH: I grew up in a home where someone tried to force catholicism on me at a very young age though it never worked
[21:30] kardelan{S-F}: once i understood it. it was easier to just love them back and accept them as they are
[21:31] kardelan{S-F}: well it didn’t work. even at 8 i thought them wanting my nickel for charity when the church was dripping gold seemed a rather poor investment for my money
[21:31] Warlok-TSH: he only did it cause he thought it was right well it was for him anyways
[21:32] kardelan{S-F}: but gor is about understanding who you are...it tends to ask some hard questions...and if you’re not honest with yourself, it can cause any relationship to have rough times
[21:34] nightfox151: to be Gor you need to understand yourself and then go from there
[21:35] kardelan{S-F}: but thats really the point behind most lifestyle philosophies...examine your heart
[21:36] kardelan{S-F}: each one pitches its glories and you pick the one that suits you
[21:36] kardelan{S-F}: i don’t think any one of them is better ..just better for that particular person
[21:36] kardelan{S-F}: ppl find the answer for them all sorts of places
[21:36] kardelan{S-F}: and if it makes them happy and productive healthy ppl..go fer it!
[21:37] nightfox151: but only you can pick it no one can tell you what or who you are your heart shows you the way
[21:37] kardelan{S-F}: thats right. if you’re honest with yourself you will choose a set of standards and goals for yourself
[21:38] nightfox151: and when you come across it , some thing clicks and you have found the way
[21:39] Malus: thats the main thing. if your honest with yourself
[21:39] Malus: if your not in touch with who you are then you wont know it if it smacks you in the head
[21:40] Malus: you have to have the eyes to see it first
[21:40] nightfox151: i think being in touch and timing has every thing to do with it
[21:40] nightfox151: you may no who you are but
[21:41] Malus: some ppl wait for a revelation and sometimes it just doesn’t come
[21:41] Malus: more of a gradual thing
[21:41] Malus: for some
[21:42] Malus: and you have some that may never see the truth
[21:43] Malus: but i don’t think for most of us here that is true
[21:43] hannah{BA}: thank You Master Warlok..
[21:43] hannah{BA}: all clean now *grins* and much cooler
[21:43] Malus: we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t seek to know ourselves
[21:44] Malus: most of us anyway
[21:44] Malus: some of us have other reasons i would imagine
[21:46] TruckerTodd: Warlok YES i would check everything my slave dose for the first couple of weeks. then after she earns her trust with me then i will un-tighten the leash in trust.
[21:52] TruckerTodd: oh by the way Warlok I don’t live in a vanilla world. if people cant handle what i am around them they can just leave.
[21:52] Zedojehn: Every minute IS yours no matter what, whether or not you choose to manage every minute of it is up to the free involved, personally I don't think it is necessary